John Wenzel is an entertainment writer for The Denver Post. He’s also a huge comedy nerd. Lucky for us he combined his professional skill with his personal passion and came up with Mock Stars: Indie Comedy and the Dangerously Funny. Wenzel talks about why indie comedy works, why some comedians aren’t fond of the term and tells us about some people you may find funny.
Chris Bowman: Indie music once referred to the way a label would operate, independent of major label affiliation and/or mainstream attention, now it seems to describe a sound. Is indie comedy similar that way, has the definition changed over time?
John Wenzel: At this point I don’t think so. I don’t think the term is wide spread or used often enough to denote that D.I.Y ethic of doing comedy outside the traditional club circuit or the mainstream stand up circuit. But, I think it has the potential to go that way. Like you said, and like I say in the intro to the book, indie music used to refer more to the means of doing it and its relationship with the commercial world but in the past ten or fifteen years it has come to mean more of an aesthetic or a tonal quality. And maybe for good or bad, maybe the book might have something to do with this, maybe indie comedy will come to mean more of a style than a way of going about things. I think it’s not well known enough as a term or used often enough to be used as a descriptor of a style. There are so many different styles that I talk about that to me fall into the indie comedy label, so to speak. I think it is short hand though, for people to know what it means.
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CB:Have you found any resistance to the term indie comedy?
JW: Absolutely. In fact most of the people I talked to for the book were reluctant to identify themselves as any sort of comic. Whether it’s indie, alternative, absurdist, anti-humor, or meta-humor. David Cross doesn’t think of himself as an indie comedian, Patton Oswalt doesn’t either. And I think for a very good reason. It’s a limiting term. I touch upon this pretty early in the book. I don’t blame people for resisting that, because it’s just a short hand to enter into the discussion of talking about these people that are doing things outside of this established circuit, this accepted circuit. They’re doing things on their own terms. But, yeah it can have the effect of limiting them and making it seem like either a) they only should appeal to a certain or b) they only try to appeal to a certain audience, where there are these elitist, hipster fuck-head kind of people.
On the other hand I’ve also talked to people like the A&R director at Sub Pop who signed all their comedians or Brian Posehn, who was on the Comedians of Comedy tour who say, “Hey it’s not perfect, but it’s a better fit than alt comedian”. Brian’s proud to have his music fan fans. People that are into death metal, punk and indie rock that would never go see him at a typical stand up show at a chain comedy club but would definitely go see him if he’s playing a rock venue, SxSW or Coachella.
CB: Recently on Twitter Tom @scharpling posted this: If you have a question you want me to ask @ToddBarry tonight, ASK IT HERE! And NO questions about independent comedy – HE WONT ANSWER THEM!
JW: That’s funny. I interviewed both Tom and Todd for the book. Todd was definitely on the more resistant side of wanting to be labeled anything. Like I said, they just want to play. Funny is funny but if you get pigeonholed it’s hard to break out of that. That’s funny though, I didn’t know they had those restrictions on that term.
CB: You say that the best comedians transcend their environments. That may be true in terms of venue, but geographically speaking, aren’t some parts of the country much more resistant to the progressive types of comedy featured in Mock Stars? Or do you believe communities like NY, L.A. and Chicago can happen anywhere?
JW: I think it’s possible. Sometimes it’s harder in certain places if they don’t have existing groundwork. I don’t know if you ever seen David Cross’ Let America Laugh but all he plays is rock clubs. And there are certain ones you can just tell are harder to do than others. If people don’t have the expectation that they’re going to see comedy, if they think it’s just going to be a rock show or they think it’s going to be this informal audience participatory conversation type of thing that can be hard to do. I think one of the places he has particular difficulty is Little Rock, Arkansas. But without stereotyping regions or audiences I think it’s less about the culture of an area or social culture and more about the availability of certain venues. Places that have strong underground music scenes would probably be better suited to have a strong underground comedy scene. I think that’s true for a number of reasons, the groundwork, an openness to that kind of stuff, and the willingness to try something new. It’s possible to do it in a place where there isn’t that, but certainly in college towns and bigger cities, I think it’s a little easier to do it in those types of places.
CB: Part of the appeal of indie comedy is its accessibility. Fans can see shows often on a PWYC basis or relatively cheap considering the caliber of talent involved. Is there a danger that once it becomes popular that it loses it appeal for those core fans?
JW: I think once it becomes less about the way they are doing things and more about a style or trend it could easily turn to shit. In some cases this movement has been around long enough, I would argue since the late nineties, that there is a maturity to it in the sense that some people don’t have to come up through the traditional club circuit. They can do stuff on line and at alternative rooms and music venues, that kind of thing. I think there is a danger of losing some of that hard work and discipline that you get from going in front of unfriendly audiences that are not going to coddle you or be automatically friendly to your politics, your subject matter, your tone or your ideals. If all you do is got to soft places, so to speak, then maybe you aren’t getting toughened up enough.
But, yeah there that danger of something that’s too popular you’re going to lose that sense of “this is ours,” and “we did this”. People will want to swoop in and make it corporate. But if the people involved have their hearts in the right places and they’re doing it intelligently, I think there is a way for it to grow and welcome more people in and still have it be more accessible than the mainstream club circuit. It can still be cheap, all ages and appeal more to people that don’t watch a lot of network sitcoms but maybe are more politically or artistically progressive without shutting other people out.
CB: Are there any comics that you’re really enthusiastic about right now?
JW:You know, there are a lot of great comedians on this label out of Minneapolis called STAND UP! Records. It’s hard to pin one down but I really like almost everything they send me. There’s one guy, he’s this kind of, New York-y old school kind of guy and probably would not fall under the rubric of indie comedy. His name is Dan Naturman. I think he’s been on Letterman once or twice. He’s hilarious. I like Morgan Murphy a lot. I think she should probably be getting more attention. Kristen Schaal is brilliant. Obviously people know her because she’s on Flight of the Conchords. I think she’s brilliant. There’re a lot of great guys in Denver. Nathan Lund does the online video shorts called Rainbow Chasers. Which is like tornado storm chaser type guys, like faux documentary, but they chase rainbows. It’s hilarious. Essentially G-rated but it’s just so fuckin’ weird and awesome. And a lot of the people I mention in the book maybe just in passing that don’t get a lot of attention. I’m sure after I hang up I’ll think of ten more.
To discover more comedians who’ll make you laugh and a bunch of interesting facts about comedians you may be familiar with go out and buy Mock Stars: Indie Comedy and the Dangerously Funny. Available now on Speck Press.