David Cross and SFist in Sketchfest Feud!
SFist visited Comedy Death Ray last night, part of the SF Sketchfest (of which TSOYA is a sponsor). The review is positive about the show as a whole, but vehemently negative about David Cross, the show's headliner.
The piece's author, Emily Cox, writes in the review: "Sadly, SFist was really disappointed (appalled might be the better word) by David Cross's routine. In addition to getting the smallest laughs from the crowd, it was the most blatant public display of bigotry we've witnessed in person."
Cross responded in the comments, writing in part:
"Emily, you can’t simply reduce everything I said, and it’s obvious (to most, at least) intent to merely being a vitriolic, bigoted soap-box lecture wherein I just say, “This is what Mormons believe, aren’t they fucking idiots?”. That is being either purposefully dishonest or at the very least, lazy and irresponsible. In addition, your numerous references to how poorly I was received seem put in there to bolster your position. This just wasn’t the case. Again, the set and entire evening were taped. I have the proof on tape. You have your clearly biased memory of events, which do not match reality."
DRAMA!
Cross' comedy can sometimes tilt towards polemic, but Cox's language was really quite strong. Of course, as an anonymous commenter pointed out, DC didn't exactly deflate those allegations of bigotry by finishing up with, "Having said all that, I do think it’s astoundingly stupid and lazy to believe in Mormonism given it and it’s founder’s history."
Cross is clearly a man with strong opinions, and his passionate audience gives him no disincentive to share them. He's also one of our most gifted comics, and has been very good to The Sound in the past. Tough to know what to make of this situation.
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The piece's author, Emily Cox, writes in the review: "Sadly, SFist was really disappointed (appalled might be the better word) by David Cross's routine. In addition to getting the smallest laughs from the crowd, it was the most blatant public display of bigotry we've witnessed in person."
Cross responded in the comments, writing in part:
"Emily, you can’t simply reduce everything I said, and it’s obvious (to most, at least) intent to merely being a vitriolic, bigoted soap-box lecture wherein I just say, “This is what Mormons believe, aren’t they fucking idiots?”. That is being either purposefully dishonest or at the very least, lazy and irresponsible. In addition, your numerous references to how poorly I was received seem put in there to bolster your position. This just wasn’t the case. Again, the set and entire evening were taped. I have the proof on tape. You have your clearly biased memory of events, which do not match reality."
DRAMA!
Cross' comedy can sometimes tilt towards polemic, but Cox's language was really quite strong. Of course, as an anonymous commenter pointed out, DC didn't exactly deflate those allegations of bigotry by finishing up with, "Having said all that, I do think it’s astoundingly stupid and lazy to believe in Mormonism given it and it’s founder’s history."
Cross is clearly a man with strong opinions, and his passionate audience gives him no disincentive to share them. He's also one of our most gifted comics, and has been very good to The Sound in the past. Tough to know what to make of this situation.
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posted by Jesse Thorn at Tuesday, January 16, 2007
9 Comments:
I'm the political sort, but when it comes to mixing it with comedy- I love it when it's good, but there is nothing I like less than the material that draws applause and not laughs. I'm a fan of Cross, and it goes without saying that he's very funny. However, his political stuff is more often in the applause column. At the very least, it requires a certain worldview. I'm on board with him about 80% of the time, but when I disagree with him, I really get a taste of how he might be received by a others.
Cross can be a bit of a prick sometimes. Picking on mormons is sort of like kicking a puppy really. I mean, who are the mormons hurting? There's not really any religion that you would look out objectively without finding this sort of humor. I like him when he sticks to more deserving easy targets like Larry the Cable Guy.
And yet, Raymond, I think a lot of what he says is valid. Certainly the Mormons don't hold atheists in high regard. Indeed, all Christians that I know of believe that atheists are going to hell.
Not that this should bother me or Cross, as we don't believe in Hell, but there certainly is a double-standard out there that we should respect religions and people's beliefs (no matter how strange), but that somehow this doesn't extend to people's non-beliefs.
Still, the ultimate test of any comedy is "Was it funny?". The reviewer for SFist excluded, it sounds like people did think it was funny, so it passes the comedy test. Nothing more offensive to me than an unfunny joke.
I'm an aetheist, but I worked at a church for many years, and have relationships with people of faith all the time, and no one has ever made me feel disrespected for it.
Not to disagree with your general point, Joe, but rather to say that that specific "you're going to hell" argument is a bit... dicey.
Mormons don't believe atheists are going to hell. In fact if you look at their doctrine, they seem to think most people are going to end up about where they want to, harps and angels or what have you. But they'd neved cop to the fact that their doctrine, however odd their legacy, is pretty innocuous. Not hurting anybody, so why kick the puppy?
I hear you, Jesse. I do think that what I said about hell was hyperbole. But certainly Christians and Muslims generally believe that the only way to heaven is through their way. That's the source of so much conflict in the world.
I find it heartening, though, to see more people coming out and saying that they are atheists. It makes people think, perhaps for the first time ever, that it is possible not to believe in a god...and I don't think that's a bad thing.
I've been reading Dawkins' "The God Delusion", can't you tell?
Have you ever seen Christian comedy? It's basically an unfunny version of what Cross does, directed against anyone who's not a fundamentalist. That's not considered bigotry. I'm not saying Cross isn't sometimes a bit of an asshole, because that's undeniable, but there's a difference between being a little bit of an asshole for (from what it sounds like, successful) comedic purposes and just being bigoted.
I just don't see how this is any different than people making fun of Scientology- no one seems to have a problem with that. The reviewer even used a South Park episode that (from her own description) seems pretty similar as far as "bigotry" as an example of how making fun of ridiculous religions can be "hilarious." She doesn't really explain how Cross did anything worse, aside from her not finding him funny, which certainly isn't grounds to accuse someone of that.
Also, while it's completely unrelated and I understand that it's the norm, people writing magazine-type reviews continually referring to themselves in the third person or as "we" is really annoying. It makes sense to refer to the publication's name the first few times, but when you're clearly discussing your own opinions "I" seems like the more appropriate pronoun.
While not all religious people look down on atheists, I know from personal experience that more than a few do. Being culturally Jewish but an atheist in my beliefs, it's clear that antisemitism is unacceptable, while disrespecting atheism certainly is not.
Well, that mormon south park episode had a lesson at the end where the mormon kid tells stan what his beliefs mean to him. So I dunno. If someone had a tape of Cross' bit, I could decide
I think Cross's point was that the fact that we do not believe automatically excludes us. I have run campaigns, but I will never get to be a candidate; at least not where I live. That's bigotry plain and simple. There are 0 Atheists in Congress and they way it looks there never will be.
Maybe Jesse has never felt discriminated at his church he works at, but that's because they know you're a good person. If someone knows I'm an Atheist before they know me as a person, I feel like I'm being judged harshly. Maybe it's just me though. They may not think twice about it and since I was raised Catholic I have a lot of guilt about my non-belief.
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