One Bad Mother Episode 222: Flexibility Hurts plus LGBTQ Literary Archivist Lee Wind!

One Bad Mother
Biz Ellis
Theresa Thorn
Lee Wind

Biz and Theresa wonder which is harder, having to be the more flexible person in the family with our work and personal needs, or adjusting our attitudes to be happy about it? How do we find the energy to adjust how we feel about it if we are always spending that energy being so freaking flexible!!? Which came first, the bitter chicken or the miserable egg? Maybe just talking it to death will help. Plus the walls are talking to Biz, Theresa made it and we talk to blogger and author Lee Wind about LGBTQ literature for young adults and children.

Check out Lee Wind's blog I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the hell do I read? for comprehensive lists of LGBTQ literature and follow him on Twitter @leewind.

Brooklyn: Tickets for One Bad Mother Live at The Bell House on Saturday October 14th are on sale now!

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Show Music
Opening theme: Summon the Rawk, Kevin MacLeod (
Ones and Zeros, Awesome, Beehive Sessions (, also avail on iTunes)
Mom Song, Adira Amram, Hot Jams For Teens (, avail on iTunes)
Telephone, Awesome, Beehive Sessions (, also avail on iTunes)
Closing music: Mama Blues, Cornbread Ted and the Butterbeans

Bullseye With Jesse Thorn: Paul Shaffer, Javaka Steptoe, and Louis Theroux

Paul Shaffer
Javaka Steptoe
Louis Theroux

New to Bullseye? Subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or with your favorite podcatcher to make sure you automatically get the newest episode every week.

Photo: Kevin Winter/Getty Images

Paul Shaffer on Leaving The Late Show and his new album

Paul Shaffer is best known for his work as the band leader and music director on David Letterman’s late night TV shows, from the late 80’s until 2015. Though he was in charge of choosing and playing the music that would appear on the show, Shaffer was kind of a sidekick to Letterman, pulling things out of hats and setting up joke punchlines for him. Before Shaffer was on The Late Show, he was a band member on Saturday Night Live. He would appear in sketches with Bill Murray and would play piano during the Blues Brothers sketches. Letterman took notice and decided he wanted that rapport to be a part of his show.

Shaffer is not just known for working with Letterman. He has written a couple of really great disco tunes, including the 1983 jam It's Raining Men, and plays with The Late Show's The World's Most Dangerous Band.

He and Jesse talk about his expansive career, what it was like working on a show everyday for half of his life then not, and his impressive eyewear.

You can catch Paul Shaffer & The World's Most Dangerous Band on tour this Spring. Their new album is on sale now.

Photo: Gregg Richards

Javaka Steptoe on his Caldecott Award Winning book Radiant Child

Javaka Steptoe is a children's book author and illustrator who has made a career of biographizing his heroes and creating books that reflect the diversity of his neighborhood. He makes an effort to illustrate books that have people of all races, all kinds of families, from a variety of socio-economic backgrounds present.

Growing up in New York and being the son of children's book author/illustrator John Steptoe, Javaka knew he was going to be an artist from the time he was a child. His first book In Daddy's Arms I am Tall, received the Coretta Scott King award for Illustrators in 1997, and many of his subsequent books recieved awards and recognition. His newest book, Radiant Child: The Story of Young Artist Jean-Michel Basquiat has won the 2017 Caldecott award, which is basically the Pulitzer Prize for children's books.

Javaka joins Jesse to talk about what it was like to grow up with a well known father, where his passion and interest in Jean-Michel Basquiat came from, and why he finds it important to create diversity in the books that children read.

Javaka's book Radiant Child:The Story of Young Artist Jean-Michel Basquiat is out now.

Photo: Jesse Thorn

The Craziest Day Of My Career: Louis Theroux

Louis Theroux is a British documentarian whose career has found himself interacting with some of the most depraved and despised people in our society. He reported on the family who runs the Westboro Baptist Church and spent time with the the leader of the White Aryan Resistance and his family. Louis, whose main interest is finding out why members of niche political parties and subcultures do what they do, also spends time with less harmful people, such as UFO hunters and Swingers on his BBC program Weird Weekends. As a part of this series, he reported on the pro-wrestling community in the United States, and took on the challenge of training with the new recruits. Louis recalls that experience for us as the craziest day of his career. Lets just say, things did not end well.

Louis has a new documentary out now called My Scientology Movie.

The Outshot: John Wick 2

What makes a perfect action film? No dialogue.

Judge John Hodgman Episode 9: The Parenthetical Petition


Judge John Hodgman decides the case of a couple who disagree: do parentheses have a place in fiction?

Recorded live at The Talent Show in Brooklyn with guest bailiff Elna Baker.

John Brandon, Novelist: Interview on The Sound of Young America

John Brandon

John Brandon is a novelist who was raised on the Gulf Coast of Florida. Citrus County is set in his home state and is his second novel, focusing on a teacher and two middle-schoolers who have their loneliness and status as outsiders in common. The book is part crime novel and part exploration of the adolescent pysche.

JESSE THORN: It’s The Sound of Young America, I’m Jesse thorn. My guest on the program is the novelist John Brandon. He’s a professor at Ol’ Miss University. His new book is called Citrus County. It’s set in Citrus County, Florida, which is simultaneously the northern and southern part of Florida; physically northern and culturally southern. Places where there are no beaches and people have not bothered to turn it into Orlando.

It’s the story of two middle schoolers and a middle school teacher, and a horrible crime, and basically the feeling of being lost in one’s life. Either as a very well justified adolescent or as a maybe slightly less justified almost 30 year old. John Brandon, welcome to the sound of young America.

JOHN BRANDON: Thanks a lot.

Click here for a full transcript of the conversation.

Mr. Freeze


"The Coolest Writer in America is obviously Mr. Freeze, DC Comics villain and author of the memoir Early On I Made A Decision To Incorporate A Cold Motif Into My Crime Sprees: A Life." - Colson Whitehead

"Max at Sea" by Dave Eggers


I read "A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius" in college. I liked it, especially the parts that weren't crushingly, overwhelmingly sad. The funny parts, for example. Loved those.

I think people who read more novels than I do are used to them being crushingly, overwhelmingly sad. I'm not, really, and it kind of fucked me up.

Then for a long time I didn't read a bunch of Dave Eggers stuff. Frankly, I was worried it would be super sad. I can't handle that shit.

But this... this is not sad. This is pretty much one of the greatest things in the history of the world.

You probably have heard that Eggers wrote the script for Spike Jonze's film adaptation of Where the Wild Things Are. That's pretty great. But did you know he also wrote a novel based on the screenplay?

Given the following...

A) Where the Wild Things Are is pretty much the greatest thing ever.
B) Dave Eggers can really kick out the jams when he wants to.


C) This is gonna be fucking great.

Also, last night, while my wife was doing the stuff ladies do before they go to bed (remove makeup? un-style hair?), I read this excerpt in The New Yorker, called "Max at Sea." It's fucking great and you should read it.

Additionally, there's a lovely profile of Spike Jonze in the Times Magazine that was just put up on the website.

Podcast: Chip Kidd at Bumbershoot

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Chip Kidd is one of the country's best-known designers. For the past twenty years, he's designed book covers for authors like Michael Crichton, David Sedaris, Cormac McCarthy and innumerable others. More recently, he's taken pen to page himself, writing two comic novels, "The Cheesemonkeys" and "The Learners."

This show was recorded live at the Bumbershoot Music & Arts Festival in Seattle, Washington.

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If you enjoyed this show, try these:
Adrian Tomine
Ze Frank
Jack Handey

RIP David Foster Wallace


Podcast: Chris Elliott

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Chris Elliott is an alternative comedy legend. He began his career as a runner on Late Night with David Letterman, before becoming an iconic writer/performer on that show. He turned his fame into a bizarre sitcom called Get A Life and a perhaps even stranger film called Cabin Boy. More recently, he's appeared in films like There's Something About Mary, Groundhog Day and Scary Movie and in many TV shows, including The King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond. He's now an author, with a new novel called "Into Hot Air: Mounting Mount Everest."

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You might also enjoy these past interview programs:
Satirist George Saunders
Artist/Writer/Filmmaker Miranda July
Comedian Dave Hill

Interview: Antoine Wilson, author of "The Interloper" by Tim Noble


One of the great things about hosting a show about things you think are awesome is that people who share your values listen -- and often they're awesome themselves. Novelist Antoine Wilson and I had emailed about the show before I even knew he was a writer. When he wrote a new (and highly critically acclaimed) book, "The Interloper," I had former intern Tim Noble, a fiction writer himself, talk with him about the book and writing. - Jesse

Tim Noble: The Interloper hinges on a very unique and rather drastic decision by its protagonist. How did the idea for The Interloper come about? How much was plotted beforehand and how much came about "in the moment"?

Antoine Wilson: I can trace the origins of the germ to a single thought I had while cruising eastbound on the I-80 in a silver Lincoln Town Car in the summer of 1998. The thought was this: What if, at one of these gas stations, or behind the desk of one of these motels, or in a random bar, what if I ran into the man who had murdered my half-brother almost twenty years before? What would I do? That germ remained in the back of my head another four years before it turned into Owen’s cockamamie plan. As far as plotting goes, it was all plotted “in the moment.” Only that moment lasted two years.

TN: Do you think it's possible to write a novel so closely dealing with death without the type of experience you went through?

AW: Absolutely it’s possible. Thinking deeply about experiences that are not your own is one of the novelist’s most crucial muscles. It’s the quadriceps, for heavy lifting. But of course the biceps get all the attention. In any case, what I meant by my statement was simply that I wouldn’t have chosen the subject matter if it hadn’t come from personal experience. I’m not interested in writing crime fiction, per se.

TN: The book deals in some dark and strange areas of the human psyche, but at the same time, contains a good bit of humor and reads fairly quickly. Is there a line between literature and "pop" fiction, and, if so, do you give much thought to what category your own writing might fall under? I'm thinking during the editing process particularly.

AW: I’ve been trying to define some of these things for myself recently, so it’s good you ask. My working distinction between so-called pop or genre fiction and so-called literature is that while the former aims to create a specific, almost programmatic experience for the reader, the latter is more open to how it is read and received. You get the sense in the former that the writer has created an entertainment, whereas with the latter the writer is engaged in trying to understand or bring order to human experience.

Of course there are genre and/or pop books that go quite deep despite their trappings, and there are plenty of literary-labeled stories of struggle and redemption that are no more than potboilers. I don’t think too much about what category I belong to; I’m aspiring to literature all the time, in that I’m more interested in creating something organic and true than perfecting an entertainment. That said, The Interloper is a fairly lean and tight machine—the fact that Owen is pursuing a plan pushed it in that direction, I think. I pared away quite a few thematically-based digressions before the manuscript went out. It didn’t have to do with making it more pop or less literary; I was just staying true to the concerns of the book.

TN: What led you into fiction writing? Was there a particular moment that the light bulb went on, and you thought, "This is what I want to do for a living?"

AW: Who makes a living? Perhaps it would be better to say, “This is what I want to do with my life.” For me it happened somewhere in the middle of college. I had always written, had always wanted to write, but it wasn’t until I decided to quit my job as an EMT and decide not to apply to medical school that I put my chips down, so to speak. I was influenced in this decision by three books (all of which I’m afraid to go back and read now): The New York Trilogy, by Paul Auster; Another Country by James Baldwin; and V. by Thomas Pynchon. I don’t know exactly how those three worked their magic on me, but they did.

TN: You attended the prestigious writer's workshop at the University of Iowa. Could you talk about your experience there? Many aspiring writers today see an MFA as the only logical step after college – are these workshops worth all the hype?

AW: I had a great experience at Iowa. Two years under the umbrella of the academy with no goal other than to write fiction. I’m sure I picked up lots of craft tips, and I know I became a better writer, but I’d say the most valuable lesson I learned was to take myself seriously as a writer. And to begin to take myself seriously as a human being. As far as the hype, well, you know what Public Enemy had to say about that. I don’t mean to be glib. In general I highly recommend MFA programs for people who really want to write—at the very least you become a better reader and a better critic of your own work. I just wouldn’t suggest going into massive debt to attend one.

TN: You occasionally teach writing classes at UCLA. How do you approach the prickly task of teaching others to write, a talent some would say falls under the category of "you either have it or you don't"? Has the experience helped your own writing at all?

AW: I have no idea whether teaching helps my writing. They’re two very different things, and I’m always struggling to bring them together. While it’s probably true that “you either have it or you don’t,” I’m not sure it’s my job to be the judge. I remember my own early stories. They blew chunks. Misguided, immature, poorly developed chunks. So I try to nudge people forward in doing whatever it is they’re trying to do. And while I encounter a lost cause now and then, every once in a while someone blows my socks off, which is always a treat.

AW: Who's the best author we've never heard of?

AW: If you haven’t heard of Thomas Bernhard, it’s Thomas Bernhard. If you have, it’s Bohumil Hrabal. If you’ve heard of him, too, maybe Lars Gustafsson. If all of those are old news, try the stories of Maile Chapman or Jack Livings—neither of them have a book yet, so you probably haven’t read too much of them. If you have, how about Eric Bennett? You’ll have to wait on him, but it will be worth it.

If you want to see some of the raves for Antoine Wilson's new novel "The Interloper," just visit the front page of his website, where they are tastefully laid out.

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